(Nakahara) Hello, everyone. I’m Jun Nakahara from the University of Tokyo. Today, I will have a discussion with Dr. Hermann Gottschewski from
the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences. Thank you very much for taking the time to join us. (Gottschewski) Hello, everyone. I’m Hermann Gottschewski. (Nakahara) Dr. Gottschewski, could you tell us about your field? (Gottschewski)It’s difficult to tell year by year. To put it simply, it is called Musicology. (Nakahara)Music? (Gottschewski)Musicology. (Nakahara)You started university teaching after obtaining an academic qualification in university teaching. Could you tell us what impressed you during your early days working as an instructor? (Gottschewski)The first thing I would like to say about my experience is that, it could never happen in Japan, but you can give a lecture only after obtaining an academic qualification for university teaching. Before that, assistants in Germany are allowed to give seminar-style classes, but giving lectures is limited to those who are qualified. However, you cannot give students credits for lectures. (Nakahara)No credits? (Gottschewski)No. No credits. (Nakahara)So, you mean that students don’t necessarily have to take lectures? (Gottschewski)Pardon? (Nakahara)Students… (Gottschewski)… don’t have to go to the classroom. (Nakahara)If they aren’t interested in the topic? (Gottschewski)They don’t have to go if they aren’t interested. They will get nothing. Nobody checks their attendance. There are no examinations. They just come to listen to the lecture. (Nakahara)So, only those who want to listen come to the classroom. (Gottschewski)Exactly. (Nakahara)I see. (Gottschewski)What was really tough was that when I gave a lectures for the first time, there was only one student left at the end of the course. (Nakahara)What! How did that happen? (Gottschewski)Well, at first, many students, probably 30 or 40, came to my class, but they found out that my lectures were uninteresting… (Nakahara)My goodness… (Gottschewski)It was really tough. (Nakahara)That would be the ultimate student rating. (Gottschewski)Exactly. So, the students aren’t graded, but the instructor is graded instead. (Nakahara)That’s interesting. It’s usually the opposite. (Gottschewski)Yes. (Nakahara)I see. (Gottschewski)I had a deep realization that the students wouldn’t be interested unless I made a great effort. (Nakahara)So, you were eventually able to keep more students until the end? (Gottschewski)Well, gradually. Little by little. (Nakahara)What specifically was different between the first course and the courses that followed? Or what was the point that you were unaware of at first? (Gottschewski)The topic I probably talked about in the first lecture was my research theme. Well, I basically make it a rule to talk about it. This is because I want to do my research. And once you give a lecture on a topic, you have to carry on the research so as to talk about another topic next week. (Nakahara)That’s amazing… (Gottschewski)That motivated me in my research. I still use my course as a motivation for my own research. In the beginning, I thought that I would be able to talk about interesting topics by doing a lot of research in a short period of time, but I couldn’t keep up. (Nakahara)Wow… (Gottschewski)so I was troubled by what to talk about for every session… And I think I ended up talking about a lot of boring things. (Nakahara)So, you mean that if you cannot make progress in your research, you are unable to give a lecture? (Gottschewski)Yes. (Nakahara)That’s a surprising system. (Gottschewski)Of course, it is possible to keep on giving the same lectures on what you have been researching for years and, actually, such lectures were popular among students. What really surprised me was that there was a slightly elderly instructor, who had given the same lectures for 25 years, since obtaining an academic qualification for university teaching. (Nakahara)That must have been his or her specialty… (Gottschewski)Yes. This person used 25-year old recordings to show examples of music. Of course, the research had advanced in 25 years, but that lecturer didn’t care at all and kept on giving the same lectures. (Nakahara)In that sense, you have never given the same lecture. (Gottschewski)Yes. I’ve never given a same lecture twice. But I think that is the reason why the instructor I mentioned was very popular among students. At first, as a young researcher, that person must have made a great effort to design those classes, so the topic was interesting in its own way. From the students’ point of view, it must be easy to take a course like that. (Nakahara)I, too, have never given the same course twice, so I can really sympathize with your feelings. (Nakahara)What was your first impression of Japanese universities? (Gottschewski)What first surprised me was that you have to give examinations when giving lectures. I hate doing it every time. (Nakahara)Is that what most surprised you when you were newly appointed to the university in Japan? (Gottschewski)Yes. When I was giving lectures in Germany, I had never thought of any topics if they could be asked as questions in an examination. There was nothing in my lectures that I could test in an examination. I think, even now, that it is not at all good to give lectures on limited topics that can be tested in examinations. But that’s the rule here. Students need to get credits. Credits and grades are especially important for the students at the College of Arts and Sciences. You need to distinguish excellent students from others for the students’ sake. It is prohibited to give A to all the students. (Nakahara)Yes. (Gottschewski)I think it is essentially wrong to do such a thing in a university course, but even so, there are still many interesting things in Japanese universities. (Nakahara)Since you are from Germany, I would like to hear your perspective on Japanese students and faculty members. You can compare the cases in Germany and in Japan. How do Japanese students appear to you? (Gottschewski)I teach at Komaba, the College of Arts and Sciences. I also teach at graduate school, but 60–70% of my courses are intended for undergraduate students in their first or second year. What I feel is that students are young. (Nakahara)Young. (Gottschewski)They are young. Japanese students enter universities when they are still adolescents. (Nakahara)Yes. If they enter right after graduating from high school, they are 18 years old. Is it not the case with students in Germany? (Gottschewski)In Germany, 18 is the age of majority, but 18-year-olds do not enter universities. It takes longer to graduate from high school in Germany. Many students graduate from high school when they are 19 or 20 years old. After that, many study abroad for a year to learn a language. The age of entering universities is mostly 22 or 23. Some students are even older when they enter. (Nakahara)Then it must be completely different to face students entering university at the age of 23 or 24 and those aged 18. You need to take extra care for the latter ones. (Gottschewski)Yes. Newly enrolled students in Japan expect that at university they will learn something, even if they don’t all aim for that. What I tell them first is that university is not a place for learning something. Until high school, school was a place to learn something, but university is a place to learn how to learn. For example, I was in charge of an undergraduate course on the History of Music. The first thing I told the students was that it is wrong to consider that the History of Music exists, and that you can learn such a thing. It is we, scholars, who create the history of music, and so the history varies according to the scholar who created it. What students must learn is the fact that knowledge is created by someone. And it is important to become interested in how knowledge is created by that person. (Nakahara)And, in the future, the student themselves will be the creators of the history of music. (Gottschewski)Yes, exactly. So, the goal of learning at university is to learn how to create the history of music. For example, you don’t need to take university courses to gain knowledge such as when a significant composer wrote which pieces, because you can find that information straight away with Google. (Nakahara)Yes, you can just Google them. (Gottschewski)So, basically, you don’t have to learn those things in university courses. (Nakahara)I see. (Gottschewski)Instead, why is that composer important, why does a certain person appear in the history of music and not another, who makes those decisions based on what criteria… these are the issues to be examined at university. (Nakahara)I see. It has been 11 years since you came to Japan. You must have delivered many kinds of courses within those years. I heard that one of them is a course where UTokyo students could interact with other Asian students. (Gottschewski)Yes. (Nakahara)Could you tell us more about that course? (Gottschewski)Student interaction began three years ago between Japanese and South Korean students. It was unsuccessful last year due to a minor unfortunate event, and we realized that small problems occur if the counterpart is limited to only one university. This year, therefore, we asked two South Korean universities, Seoul National University and Yonsei University, together with National Taiwan University and the University of Hong Kong. Students are coming from the two South Korean universities, and from the university in Taiwan at the end. No one is coming from Hong Kong, so this time we will have interaction between students from Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. (Nakahara)What kind of topics do they discuss or what kind of ideas do they exchange? (Gottschewski)We assign different themes each time. I don’t have many graduate students, and neither does the instructor at Seoul National University, so we try to find and assign themes that as many students as possible can get involved with. I assigned listening as the theme this time. Listening is one of the most important activities in music culture. For example, some people listen to music with speakers at home, some people go to a concert to listen to music, and some people go to a forest to listen to birdsong. The music they listen to may be classical music, pop music, traditional music, or not music at all, but interesting sounds. How has listening changed historically and culturally? Such issues can be seen from various perspectives and… (Nakahara)…discussed. (Gottschewski)…discussed. (Nakahara)Is English used to communicate with each other? (Gottschewski)We have no choice but to use English. English is the only common language. (Nakahara)How are Japanese students? Do they actively speak out? (Gottschewski)They need to prepare. They have an approximately one-year preparatory period for this course. First, the students submit abstracts on their research theme. This is the theme I assigned them to work on, and only excellent abstracts are accepted. So, we select students. The next step, which is going on right now, is to create a mailing list to enable everyone to get in touch and introduce themselves to everyone else via e-mail. The following step, which will take place by the end of this month, is rewriting the abstracts and … (Nakahara)…sharing? (Gottschewski)…sharing them with everyone. Students read each other’s abstracts. There are currently 17 participants in all. They are divided into four groups, making groups of four or five students each. Each group includes a mix of Taiwanese, South Korean, and Japanese, who major in similar fields. For example, one group comprises students majoring in avant-garde music, another group comprises Asian traditional music, and so on. Students first have an intensive discussion within their groups. A month before the seminar commences, all the students must submit full papers in English. There is a strict word limit for each paper. This is because we want everyone to read each other’s papers. There is a period of about one month to read the papers. Students are required to read all the submitted papers written by the other 16 students, and then go through the ones written by their groupmates in details They must think of two or three questions to ask their group members. And when the overseas students actually come and gather in Tokyo, we begin with a self-introduction session. After that, we have one session in the afternoon and another the next morning, where the four or five members of each group discuss the presentation they are planning to make. Finally, we have a plenary session where each participant is provided with 45 minutes to make a presentation. That means all 17 students and some instructors join in and have an intensive discussion on each paper. (Nakahara)I see. (Gottschewski)Of course, we also give them a lot of opportunities to mingle, such as holding receptions, so they all become fluent English speakers in a week. (Nakahara)How about the reaction of the students who have participated in the exchange session? (Gottschewski)They say they would like to participate again. (Nakahara)Really? (Gottschewski)There is one student joining the present session for the fourth time. (Nakahara)I see. There are even repeat participants. (Gottschewski)Yes. (Nakahara)Your students seem to be highly satisfied. I’m afraid we’re running out of time, so I would like to ask you a final question. Graduate students who would like to become faculty members in the near future are watching this online. Could you give words of encouragement or a message to those young graduates? (Gottschewski)What I would like to tell them is to work on what they are truly interested in. Of course you have to think about whether others may be interested in that topic, but unless you are truly interested in it, no one will be, so I think it is not good to determine the course of your career with the intention of making it easier to get hired or something… (Nakahara)You mean that it’s a bad course of action. (Gottschewski)Exactly. If there’s nothing you can get truly interested in, your wish to become a faculty member might be wrong in the first place. (Nakahara)I’m afraid time’s up. I would like to end this session. Thank you very much. (Gottschewski)Thank you.
